Hi, it's me.

Hi, just thought I'd see what was going on in here. Where are all the Evanescence fans, I thought there would be a lot more?

Hi and welcome!!!

Hi Lithium welcome!!!

Lithium wrote:

Hi, just thought I'd see what was going on in here. Where are all the Evanescence fans, I thought there would be a lot more?

Hi Lithium

Well, you are one more! Welcome

Hello Lithium, welcome aboard Great to have you here! I'm hoping more will join soon

Well we have the second highest posts out of all the new forums

Not that this is a competition or anything, but I really don't think we should be letting the other bands beat us

StartSomething wrote:

Well we have the second highest posts out of all the new forums

Not that this is a competition or anything, but I really don't think we should be letting the other bands beat us

That's because you are a post whore!!

Well someone needs to do it....Nightwish have nearly 600 posts

Can't be right they are ahead of us

I can'r believe you're checking up on the other forums

Maybe i should do a comp on the main forum for all admins of each forum (not me) to be responsible at getting the most posts/members and the admin of the forum who has the most of both gets a prize

Typical

When I suggested that when we had the subs (and evanescence was easily the most popular ) you didn't like the idea, now we're losing its all changed

But, it is a good idea

Haha well there wasn't anyone to reward on the main forum because i am the only admin, but with the individual forums there are co-admins (or will be) so they can win the prize, a free cd from a FM band or T-shirt or something, each Month

We have a prize giving comp for the members and now we can have one for the staff plus encourage them to be the best admins

Sorry Lith, we've gone off topic just a tad

Yep, go for it Caz

And, yes, sorry for going OT Lith, hope you like it here

Congrats for being winner of the week over on the main forum by the way very well deserved

Actually, I'm glad that you guys are talking about this stuff, because I'm completely baffled at why these band forums were moved. Here is my reasoning:

1. The band sub-forums were not doing any harm over in the main forum. Anyone who was not interested in them could just ignore them.

2. For the people who were interested in them (and there were many) it was a HUGE CONVENIENCE to have them so nicely integrated with the main forum.

3. Therefore, moving them was an inconvenience for the people in #2 above, while the people in category #1 were unaffected by the move.

4. Therefore, on balance, moving them was a net negative.

If you folks can shoot a hole in that logic, please do. Unless there is some technology-related reason for moving them, I suppose my suggestion would be to open them back up before the Ev fans move on to places like Evthreads.

On another unrelated topic, this forum is nowhere nearly as aesthetically attractive as the main one (which, for me, is a HUGE deal). Also, it's harder to use because (for one thing) I can't see my cursor while I'm typing. For someone like me who likes to use a lot of code in my posts, that's a pretty big deal also.

Please don't interpret these as negative comments, because what I'm actually saying is that the main forum was a true masterpiece, IMO. Now that these subs have been moved, I'm finding out even more what a masterpiece it actually was and already pining away for the 'good old days' when everything was together. As you know, I give my true opinions on everything and try to just tell it as I see it. I'm NOT saying that I am necessarily right or that anyone has to agree with me.

Honestly, one of the few good things that hasn't changed is that Steve is still the moderator.

Oh, and hello Franneke and Deadly Poison. Didn't mean to ignore you.

Also, thanks for the warm welcome as the kind words about me getting the rosette this week.

Thanks for your comments Lithium.

I can see where you are coming from when you talk about how great the main forum is and I also had similar doubts as yourself with these new forums.

The important thing is that, as long as everyone registers for the forums they are interested in, we haven't really lost anything. The main forum is still there, as good as always, but now its more focused on the smaller bands which is something Caz was keen to do.
The main forum is a little less cluttered than before, because the game and discussion threads from the subs have been moved.
You can move between the forums easily - so it still feels like one big community, which I thought would be difficult to do.

One problem with the sub-forums was that occasionally members would go into a sub for a band they didn't even like, basically to criticise, now you have to register separately this won't happen.

I think the reason FM forum is so successful is because Caz is always looking for ways to improve things, this latest move shows this.

As I said, I understand your points and the way you put them across makes me hope you come to this forum as often as you can.

I agree with everything Steve said. Well done Steve for clearing that up

You'll also be happy to know, lith, that i have sorted the problem of not seeing the cursor when you type. And no this forum is not as appealing visually as the main forum, but that was my intention The main forum should and will always be the MAIN forum.

Another reason for these forums is for the fans of say, Evanescence to join a forum just for Ev because they may not be fans of other Femme Metal bands.

I meant to say something about the cursor, that was bloody annoying

Thanks for sorting it Caz

Haha no probs

First of all, I want to repeat that I am just telling you what I think, and that I may NOT be right about what I am saying, either in whole or in part.

However, I have been on forums since 1995, with literally tens of thousands of posts over those years. Of course, this does not make my opinions any more valid than anyone else's, but it does mean that, from time to time, I am going to have a lot more things to say than the average poster.

I had set aside some time today to put up two reviews for Caz on the Webzine site. But that site is still frozen, so I decided instead to use this time to write some rather extensive comments about both the main forum and this one.

Please, I ask that you not be offended, and that you take my comments in the spirit with which they are intended, which is to try to contribute to the quality and success of the forums.

StartSomething wrote:

The important thing is that, as long as everyone registers for the forums they are interested in, we haven't really lost anything.

Well, yes I believe that we have lost a great deal.

First of all, everyone is not going to register. As someone with a graduate degree in marketing, I can tell you that the first rule of consumer behavior is that people are lazy. The harder you make things for the consumer, the less likely is the consumer to do what you want. While registering for these forums may seem like a simple step, it is extra work for people, and many of them simply will not do it.

Second, we've lost ease of access. Using myself as an example, I never posted much in the old Evanescence sub because I didn't have much to say. But I did really enjoy reading the stuff that other people had posted. For example, I didn't even know that Amy was thinking about going solo. After I was finished my posting in the other forums, I simply could not resist clicking over to the Ev sub to read what was being said - even though I did not really have the time for it. Now? Well, now I'll be able to resist because of the extra step of having to link over here and log in. This is just simple human behavior.

Quote :

The main forum is still there, as good as always, but now its more focused on the smaller bands which is something Caz was keen to do.

Smaller bands are great, but a lot of people don't care about them that much, or at least they don’t have much to say about them other than “sucks” or “kicks ass.” The major-band subs gave people something to talk about, and gave me something to read. I loved reading that fan stuff, and now that it's gone I feel a deep sense of loss - as do many posters. The only difference between me and them is that I have made the effort to come in here and tell you, while most of them have not.

Point is, the extra work of having to leave the main forum and log in again means that, quite sadly, now there no longer is anything to distinguish, say, the new FM WT forum from dime-a-dozen places such as The Promise.

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The main forum is a little less cluttered than before, because the game and discussion threads from the subs have been moved.

Sorry, I don’t follow what you’re saying. Could you please clarify this point about the “game and discussion threads”? I agree that the main forum is less cluttered, but this is meager compensation for the loss of such easy access to the major-band forums that we had before.

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You can move between the forums easily - so it still feels like one big community, which I thought would be difficult to do.

I do not believe it’s so easy, nor that it feels like a big community. To me it feels like things have become Balkanized, a point which was a stated goal in the next quote of yours – to separate fans of the various bands by making it more difficult for them to get into arguments. Which is it? Easy, or deliberately harder? One big community, or deliberately separate?

To illustrate this point, for example, please tell me how is it any easier for me to come in here than it is for me to click on my Evthreads bookmark and log in there? It's the same... I click a link and then I log in. Before, all I had to do was go down to the Ev sub on FM forum... much easier.

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One problem with the sub-forums was that occasionally members would go into a sub for a band they didn't even like, basically to criticise, now you have to register separately this won't happen.

I know the type of thing you are referring to because I recall at one point sending you a PM to tell you that I supported you in one such incident.

But, I do not see these little brouhahas as problem. Mind you, I DO AGREE that they are VERY unpleasant to be personally involved in. I say this as someone who has been involved in more than my share of dust-ups, forum fist-fights and all-out flame wars over the years. And, of course, I have done and said many things that I now regret. So, I definitely know where you are coming from. HOWEVER, for the posters who are NOT directly involved, these incidents are of little or no consequence, and in fact many or most of the punters actually ENJOY a little drama once in awhile to keep them interested.

In the last forum I was on, for example, it was not uncommon for wars to break out and spread not only from thread to thread, but even from sub to sub. Threads would grow at the rate of ten or twenty pages per day, with hundreds of posts and tens of thousands of VIEWS. And, as you know, it is the number of VIEWS that tells the real story in any forum, not the number of posts.

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I think the reason FM forum is so successful is because Caz is always looking for ways to improve things, this latest move shows this.

Before I start, Steve, could you please make sure that Caz sees this post of mine? Out of respect for her, I want to make sure that she sees it now that her name has come up.

I agree wholeheartedly that Caz has done a great job. In fact, the ONLY reason I joined FM forum was because I could see that it was very well-run… especially with respect to the absence of trolls – thus far, I have not seen a single one and, really, I have no idea how she does it. Caz’s leadership also was the reason why I joined on to the Webzine, both as a reviewer and as an assistant administrator on the site. I have very high standards, and I could see that she shared those high standards, which is something I have found in my experience to be very rare.

If I had had the motivation, FM Forum is the type of project that I would have wanted to undertake myself. The fact that Caz is doing it so well comes as a great relief to me, because now I have an “excuse” for NOT doing it myself, even though I never would have actually done it because I’m just not motivated the way she is. (I hope that makes sense.)

Anyway, point is, there comes a time to just leave things alone. There comes a time in any project when the quality becomes so good that any further changes are, by necessity, likely to harm rather than to improve. I am often guilty of this myself. As a perfectionist, I always feel in my heart that I can do a better job. So, I try to change things, often only to find that I actually am messing up what previously had been a very good job. I strongly believe that this point was reached in the FM Forum a week or two ago, and that several very disappointing changes have been made in the last week.

First, there are the issues we’ve been discussing: the separation of the major-band forums.

Second, there has been a change made sometime between late Monday and Wednesday that has me very, very upset. I have PM’d Caz about this, and she is free to tell you what it is if she wants to. If this change was made because of something that I have done, then I apologize from the bottom of my heart. But, I am very disappointed and upset because it involves a subject that is very important and very personal to me.

Third, I was very disappointed to see the banner changed from its previous multi-color design to the current orange-and-black one. This is nowhere near as big a deal to me as the one that I PM’d Caz about, but it really hurts to see this change. It honestly and truly breaks my heart every time I look at the new banner, because the old one was absolutely stunning and so much better.

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As I said, I understand your points and the way you put them across makes me hope you come to this forum as often as you can.

Well, I hope you can see that the only reason I am bringing this stuff up is because I care so much. The people who do not care either will not notice or will not bother to utter so much as a peep.

In fact, I care so much about FM Forum that if I DIDN’T say these things to you, then I would feel like a spineless wimp for not having the courage to speak up – even at the risk of offending you, which I hope I haven’t done. But, if I have, then I would rather be a pompous ass than a spineless wimp any day of the week. Finally, if that is indeed the case, then I hope that you will forgive me and come to see that it is only because I care.

OK.................. hehe, first thanks for the compliments Lith Second, as i have replied in my PM no other changes have been made, just a forum glitch i presume. The header on FM, i have already received a PM from someone saying that they love it, so that is just a matter of opinion

It is easy to move from forum to forum, i do it all day, every day. You do not need to log out. If it does all go tits up i can always change back to the old way, but i really don't think that will happen.

With everything comes negative responses, but to be honest i haven't had many about this, i have had more positive responses to these new forums so that gives me hope No matter what you do in life there will always be people who don't agree, but i can not please everyone, so i concentrate on doing what i think is right.

And at the end of the day, it is only a forum, originally just for fun, and still is for fun but it has also served a purpose for promoting the smaller bands, which is what i am very pleased with.

And these new forums have given me an idea of another competition for the staff members So yet another plus. I know what you mean about being a perfectionist and yes i can be a bit like that, but mostly it is because i get bored You see, all forums become boring eventually, to everyone i should think. What i try to do is keep people on their toes, keep them entertained and interested, i think i have that down don't you? And yes some of you won't like it, but some of you moaned when i changed the forum skin, it doesn't matter what i do, someone WILL moan I can either let it get me down and give up with my ideas or i can look on the bright side and know that to me it's the right decision. And if i'm wrong? What's the worst that could happen?

People are joining these forum, they are posting and it does still feel like a community, we all know each other, and people are getting on better as well, and yes drama makes for good entertainment for those reading it, but what about those involved? I have seen forums fall to pieces over petty feuds. Not to mention it makes for a very stressful and awkward job for me and the moderators.

People can now go all fangirl/boy over their favourite band without worrying about being criticised or ridiculed for it.

And no, you haven't offended me, you'll find it is rather hard to do that I still think you are a

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful response, Caz.

About 99% of what I was so upset about was the "other thing" that we discussed in PM. Because of that issue, I surely became oversensitized to the other two changes (forum split and banner change). I'm so relieved to hear that it was a technical glitch and not a deliberate policy change. Seriously, you have no idea.

Also, I agree that you should do whatever YOU think is right and ignore what anyone else says (including me) if you are not persuaded.

My next suggestion:

Maybe Steve or someone could PM the top five posters in the old Ev forum to find out why they haven't come over here yet? I really liked reading those threads in the old forum.

Finally, I don't care much for moaners, either. So, when I myself do moan about something, I try very hard to at least do it in a respectful way and to clearly explain my reasoning. I hope I haven't failed in that regard here.

You make some intereseting points Lithium, as always!
Many of the points you make were also concerns of mine when Caz first mentioned what was going to happen.
One thing I would say is that, the FM forum you praise so highly (rightly ) didn't just come about overnight. It took months of work by a lot of people - including yourself - to make it the forum it is now. I anticipate that if everyone in the community works equally hard then these new forums will be just as successful!
The point you make about PM'ing some of the regular sub-forum posters is a great one, and something I was considering, and I will talk to Caz about this.

Lithium wrote:

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful response, Caz.

About 99% of what I was so upset about was the "other thing" that we discussed in PM. Because of that issue, I surely became oversensitized to the other two changes (forum split and banner change). I'm so relieved to hear that it was a technical glitch and not a deliberate policy change. Seriously, you have no idea.

Also, I agree that you should do whatever YOU think is right and ignore what anyone else says (including me) if you are not persuaded.

My next suggestion:

Maybe Steve or someone could PM the top five posters in the old Ev forum to find out why they haven't come over here yet? I really liked reading those threads in the old forum.

Finally, I don't care much for moaners, either. So, when I myself do moan about something, I try very hard to at least do it in a respectful way and to clearly explain my reasoning. I hope I haven't failed in that regard here.

You are the most thoughtful moaner i know! Which is why i don't mind you moaning

As far as i know all the regular Ev fans from FM are here, aren't they? Steve, are they?

Caz wrote:

As far as i know all the regular Ev fans from FM are here, aren't they? Steve, are they?

Most of them are here, but not all of them are posting much. And its true that alot of them log into the main forum a hell of alot more regularly then they do here, but I think that will get better

Yeah it should, although they probably still will be on FM more as it's the main 1 but they should still come over here, we'll force them to!!!